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I've just started to practice the bottom deal and wonder if some of you guys have got any good tips? The hardest part for me is to move one card and one card only from the bottom, since the cards above the bottom card tend to move.

I've never practiced a bottom deal but I do show it to people as part of a trick called the "master poker deal". This is where you show that you've got the four aces on the bottom and visibly deal them to yourself whilst dealing 5 different five card poker hands face down. You show, unsurpisingly, that you have the four aces in yours of the five hands. After collecting all of the cards up and showing the aces going into the middle. You then you procede to do a "dealing from the middle of the deck" routine where it is not visible as if you are dealing the aces to yourself, but you show your hand and you actually have a royal flush.

I love this affect as it's so simple. It's taught by Andrew Murray on his "Thirteen" DVD which is great for beginners.

Hi Garfield....

Here are some tips for the push-off bottom deal...Try to practice with small packet as BD with the whole deck is extremly hard....Your left pinky and ring finger should not "open"...try to deal the top card and try to make BD just the same...which means that you have to start sliding the top card but when your right hand comes to take that card you draw it back and the left hand "serves" the right hand with the bottom card....at the same time this pushed off top card will cover the left fingers movement...

But your action while preforming the BD is MORE important than the technique used....

Try practicing top-bottom-top-bottom-top-bottom...there should not be a sound change...something I'm still trying to get perfect...

The best way to practice BD is to show it to the people....just show it to them as the demonstration of the most famous move in card cheating...when you start getting great reactions then you'll know your BD is ready to be used for magic....

I learned the bottom deal from Mr.Allan Ackerman on his Advanced Card Control Series...(8 DVD's set)...you can buy the volumes separatly so try checking the Vol.2 which is called "False deals"....There are ton of other moves that use BD and I think you'll have a great time with this DVD...

Also there's one other DVD which I cannot recommend at the moment because I just ordered it 3 days ago and I'm still waiting for it...

It's called "The Cheat"....take a look... http://www.magictricks.co.uk/prodshow.asp?code=346

I highly recommend Ian Kendall's 'Top's, seconds and bottoms' VCD

Ian is a great teacher and explains everything very clearly.

All the deals are from a standard mechanics grip so nothing looks unusual.

Personally this is a big bonus for me, I'm not a fan of those modified grips plus if you're doing magic effects before or after or during the deals you don't have change your grip.

TheMightyNubbin wrote:All the deals are from a standard mechanics grip so nothing looks unusual.

And they should be from a standard mechanics grip...anything else is just cr*p...although for the layman the erdnase grip is also invisible and looks normal...but I prefer mechanics grip...

It's interesting because Steve Forte, who is the best false dealer I've ever seen doesn't use a standard mechanics grip.

I guess he's the exception that doesn't prove the rule.

But I think that any other grip except mechanics grip is "revealing" to the other magicians....to the layman it doesn't matter even if you do the bottom deal with your foot as long as you do it flawlesly....

Here are some tips for the push-off bottom deal...Try to practice with small packet as BD with the whole deck is extremly hard....

You can use this as a starting point, but I'd advise not to get into the habit of it as it's generally an unrealistic approach. Instead, learn to make the deal look good even with a larger packet, it isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be provided you use the right technique, it's poor technique, not difficulty that causes most people to fail.

Your left pinky and ring finger should not "open"...

This depends on the grip you're using. For example, if you're using a master's grip then your pinky and ring finger definitely should open. If you're using an Erdnase grip then they are already out of the way. If you're using a mechanic's grip they should open etc. The reality is, if the fingers are in the way they have to open. But that isn't a bad thing, the key is simply that you need to open the fingers for the tops as well as the bottoms and limit how much the fingers open so the action is natural. For a straddle grip, SF grip, shifted grip, Count's grip etc. you won't open the fingers but that's due to an entirely different mechanic.

try to deal the top card and try to make BD just the same...which means that you have to start sliding the top card but when your right hand comes to take that card you draw it back and the left hand "serves" the right hand with the bottom card....at the same time this pushed off top card will cover the left fingers movement...

Mostly good advice. Like he said, try to make them identical, this means you should always have a choice of whether to take the top or bottom card, nothing should change physically between the deals. Also, don't overlook the cover your hand provides as you perform the take.

Try practicing top-bottom-top-bottom-top-bottom...there should not be a sound change...something I'm still trying to get perfect...

Until you are proficient with bottoms, just deal bottoms, once you get the technique down, then try alternating. In other words, first, learn to make the tops and bottoms identical, to do this I advise to an extent taking both cards at once and ensuring the action is identical. Once you've got the technique down very slowly, start practicing repeated bottoms. Once you are comfortable with the bottoms, alternate tops and bottoms, then mix them all together in dealing patterns.

As for the sound, cover it with a snap. Also, watch the angle of the cards as they come off the deck and watch how the cards interact with your fingers. If you need I can post a video demonstration for you.

The best way to practice BD is to show it to the people....just show it to them as the demonstration of the most famous move in card cheating...when you start getting great reactions then you'll know your BD is ready to be used for magic....

Film yourself, perform it slowly and watch, when you can't catch yourself it's unlikely that others will. Confidence is also important, when you're dealing with non-chalence even a bad deal often flies.



In terms of getting the bottom and only the bottom card, what grip are you using?


And they should be from a standard mechanics grip...anything else is just cr*p...although for the layman the erdnase grip is also invisible and looks normal...but I prefer mechanics grip...

Nonsense, there are other grip options, starting with a master's grip which actually looks more like a standard grip than a mechanic's grip does. Other grips work as well, it has a lot to do with your approach to the cards.


It's interesting because Steve Forte, who is the best false dealer I've ever seen doesn't use a standard mechanics grip.

Steve is definitely very good, depending on the deal (Actually, he's good anyway, but he excels in certain deals), and no, he doesn't use a mechanic's grip, nor did John Scarne in a lot of cases, nor did Marlo etc. etc. etc. One of the beauties with Steve's false deals is his ability to use both bottoms and seconds with the same grip seamlessly. His centers need work though, or at least they did on the GPS.

But I think that any other grip except mechanics grip is "revealing" to the other magicians....to the layman it doesn't matter even if you do the bottom deal with your foot as long as you do it flawlesly....

Flawlessly, yes, but also casually. That's one of the things that made Walter Irving Scott so effective, likewise for Steve Forte, the action is so casual you don't suspect anything, you don't look for anything.

A lot of time will be saved if you experiment a bit with the grip that works best for you.

Weather you use mechanics, master (no s) Erdnase or even a full grip (four fingers along the side al la Fred Robinson) you wil have to find the correct spot for the deck to 'float' in related to the size of your hand.

Time spent achieving this will have you dealing bottoms quite quickly, however, lots and lots of practice is still required to achieve a deceptive flow.

All the best have fun,
John.

I find that the best way to bottom deal is to put your dealing hand's thumb on top of the deck and it's fore-finger at the bottom of the deck. Now, the trick is to rock the deck. Hold the deck in your left hand and turn your wrist so the pack is angled upward. Then, flick your wrist down and pull the bottom card out with your right forefinger. The wrist movement in your left hand is the key and it is hard to describe. It should look something like strumming a guitar chord. You must do everything this way even when dealing from the top (but obviously take the top card) to make it look fair. The key is practice.

I am still working on this as well. I have just about got it down. I got a video that may be of use to anyone wanting to learn how to bottom deal. Vernon Revelations vol 11&12. It is a two for 1 deal so don't think you have to buy both. You get both vol. in that one video. In it they discuss many ways to hold the deck to deal bottoms. Some work better than others for different people. It depends on hand size too.

What works best for me is to hold the deck in a modified dealers grip or the actual name is the Elliot bottom deal. The difference is the index finger is resting on the top edge and my pinky is on the bottom edge. The two middle fingers in the middle.

Now when you deal normal you still perform that same actions as if you were dealing bottoms that way it doesn't look different when you do. Your dealing middle finger will go between the first and second finger of the holding hand. Touch your middle finger on the bottom card on normal deals. On each bottom, thumb the top card over to hide the action below. At the same time you are doing the work below, on top the action should be: you thumb the top card over as if to deal it. Use the thumb of the dealing hand and pull on the top card creating tension, so its like both thumbs are playing tug-o-war with the top card. Now when the action is done with the bottom card as you bring it of the bottom to deal it release tension with your dealing thumb and the top card will spring back into place on top.

Now I realize that this is all pretty confusing. I have the video and I was confused too. I seriously recommend getting it. There is also alot more info on these videos; second deals, shifts, gambling techniques(cheating), and the all famous center deal. Check it out and good luck.

The first one is from Erdnase. This one Vernon himself said isn't good for small hands so if you have big hands or you feel brave then this one is for you. It is very complex so bare with me.

I will be talking as though you all deal with your right hand and hold the deck with your left, plus I will reference the corners with numbers. So, if you are looking at a card the top left corner will be 1, top right 2, bottom left 3 and bottom right 4. The deck is held close to the base of the hand with corner #3 at the mucsle of the thumb and with the middle finger on the opposite corner #2. The index finger is along the left edge of the deck and sort of wrapped around corner #1. The ring and pinkey lay along the edge between #2 and #4.

Now that is the grip, the action is of course masked by the top card being pushed over as in all bottom deals. As the top is pushed over the ring finger moves up and under corner #2 by the middle finger and pushes the bottom card out to be dealt. This is a very uncomfortable motion for me and this is why I don't use this meathod. That is it though hope I made this easy to understand.

In the rest of the grips I will still use the number reference for the corners, i think this makes it much easier to understand.

Ok and this is the last one, its called the Artanis bottom deal. I forgot I already typed the description for the other one before so this is it.

This placment of the deck is the same as the last one. The fingers change slieghtly though.

The index and middle fingers are placed between corners 1 and 2. The ring and pinky fingers are between 2 and 4. So that is the grip and of course the action is masked by the top card.

The bottom deal in this one is different from the others though. This one give more of an appearance of how people really deal. Most people deal from the top left corner and spin the card out to deal. This is more of a card playing technique than what a magician would use.

So when you deal this bottom the middle finger will contact the bottom card and the wrist will be bent slieghtly. Deal a few cards out as a regular deal would look this should look the same. Your hand will be infront of the cards wrist bent and touch your thumb on the top left corner of the top card. The middle finger contacts the bottom card with quite a bit of pressure and cuts out of where the fingers on the left hand hold the deck. So instead of coming directly out sideways this one comes out upward, past the fingers of the left hand. Once the card is out you spin it as you normally would deal.

I can understand that this one is alot harder to grasp from words. It was still somwhat confusing watching the video. The reason this was developed was because people were worried about the deck holding fingers moving when a bottom deal is accomplish. This deal is supposed to nullify this movment, but I have yet to do this deal without having to move these fingers. It seems not possible for me to get the card out without moving those fingers. The card just doesn't cut out for me, but good luck anyways.