talkmagic.co.uk

Ok so I'm new smack me down with impunity

Anyway it appears there are two separate groups.

Those that use NLP / Hypnosis for Entertainment and those that use it for clinical purposes.

I was wondering if that didn't warrant its own area a place to discuss both topics with people who clearly understand the roles therein.

It just appears that we have a lot of confusion and no clear delineation between the information being provided and its relationship to either magic or hypnosis in general.

Anyway cheers,

--infy

I'd be surprised if there's anyone who want to seriously study clinical hypnosis and comes to a magic web site to do their study.

NLP/hypnosis therefore fits nicely into the mentalism section in my view.

There are plenty of other forums about that specialize in both, this is a magic based forum and I think it would be pointless and out of place.

If there is a Mentalism or Magic effect that relies on Hypnotism or NLP(doubt it), then the member is of course free to post it in the appropriate section.

A couple of recent threads on the subject don't really justify a whole new section.

Well no what I meant was those of us that have clinical backgrounds aren't properly representing the aspect it is used in Mental Magic or Mentalism.

Also most of us can not get to the Mentalists forum so any discussion there while valuable isn't accessible to new people.

I just think there is confusion if NLP or hypnosis is used in any effect and if it is to what extent.

Perhaps that's further down the path I.E. you get invited to a section and this stuff becomes more apparent.

However all I see are a bunch of clinical discussing nlp/hypnosis and so either make a place for it to lock the threads.

"This is all you need to know about NLP/Hypnosis in regards to a beginner in magic."

I think the discussions we are having are a derivative of not having a clear answer on the above.

--Infy

I second the idea that it would be useful for a new place for NLP and hypnosis in the context of performance, but why stop there? NLP, psychology, hypnosis, persuasion, influence, language patterns, pattern interrupts, guided imagery, time dilation, scripting, patter, phraseology etc. are all viable techniques and are used by mentalists and I'd guess magicians too. I can think of at least one well known performer who has used quite a few of the above to build a reputation.

The methods used clinically in hypnotherapy still work in a similar way to stage performance. The techniques used can be somewhat different in terms of speed, but it's still essentially the same thing.

If you're into bizarre magic, surely some of those things are extremely useful for patter, setting the scene and atmosphere, influencing the specs to believe in whatever it is you're trying to sell them? If I were setting up a seance for example, I'd definitely be using hypnosis and at least thinking about how NLP could help! People are in a highly suggestible state before they even arrive. The possibilities are absolutely endless and get my juices flowing just thinking about it. Sorry, got a bit excited there!

I'd have thought things like Wonder Words come into this subject area too. How many posts are there from mentalists where it is at least mentioned how important wording and phrases are? Many effects rely solely on what is said, so the language is one of the vital tools available. NLP and hypnosis (particularly Ericksonian) are very powerful tools to aid language use. There is a lot of crossover between these disciplines and it's worth looking at imho.

Just my 2p worth

Infinite wrote:Well no what I meant was those of us.....

Parts of this post made no sense whatsoever! At least to me.

I don't see a need for a separate hypnosis section. Either Support & Tips, or the Mentalist section seems fine. If you want to discuss clinical hypnosis then I would suggest that this is not the best website for that.

However all I see are a bunch of clinical discussing nlp/hypnosis and so either make a place for it to lock the threads.

Erm, I didn't understand this sentence. Sorry. Perhaps you could expand?

Yeah writing disability I'm sorry for the confusion.

Essentially you have clinical hypnotherapist discussing hypnosis. This isn't the purpose of the bored and thus it could be shoved under Dove.

However it seems clear there is no resource for beginners to understand when/if NLP/hypnosis is ever used in mental magic or mentalism.

If you had your own thread it would be clear as there would be moderators who is and is not knowledgeable on this sort of topic.

There very well may be a WEALTH of information in the mentalist section that deals with these topics. This is not available to the new people joining.

So even a sticked post in a forum that says, "Hypnotism/NLP in Magic." and gave people the basic information would be useful.

I.E. Do not waste your time on this until you have mastered x, y and z. Possibly even, "Hypnosis and NLP will come into play with these types of effects."

As it stands I can't represent the magical side of the conversation just the clinical side. I don't see anyone offering that input in the threads started which was the gensis of this post.

I think based on comments its fair to say a new forum would be highly overkill.

I still see a gap of information for new people that was or is my point.

--Infy

Infinite wrote:However it seems clear there is no resource for beginners to understand when/if NLP/hypnosis is ever used in mental magic or mentalism.

The idea of the forum isn't to provide tutorials or spoon feed people though.

Wishmaster wrote:I second the idea that it would be useful for a new place for NLP and hypnosis in the context of performance, but why stop there? NLP, psychology, hypnosis, persuasion, influence, language patterns, pattern interrupts, guided imagery, time dilation, scripting, patter, phraseology etc. are all viable techniques and are used by mentalists and I'd guess magicians too. I can think of at least one well known performer who has used quite a few of the above to build a reputation.

No. He used the illusion of those things. What he actually does is good old fashioned mentalism just in a new suit of clothes.

themagicwand wrote:No. He used the illusion of those things. What he actually does is good old fashioned mentalism just in a new suit of clothes.

He has used pattern interrupts quite a bit for amnesia routines (e.g. forgetting name and station when he did the scene on the Londong tube and the one with the water bottle on the street in Blackpool. That was a beauty). It's easy to miss, but he did it. I used the same one only last week to rapidly induce my niece, enabling her to speak Chinese for an hour or so. Even though she can't!

He's also used rapid inductions a lot too, as he did in Enigma at least twice that I can remember. He's no stranger to NLP methods and hypnosis (Erickson). I don't understand how you can fake a rapid induction in front of a live audience.

Maybe, I'm missing something.

Wishmaster wrote:
Maybe, I'm missing something.

I'll grant the hypno thing - I believe that DB worked as a stage hypnotist before moving on the magic. Although I would suggest that a rapid induction on stage would be easy to achieve - the amount of social compliance on the shoulders of the spec would be huge.

As for NLP and related who-ji-watsits, I'm more dubious. The pattern interupt I'd say was right, but most other times the explanation is a smoke screen, as much part of the trick as the trick itself.

I assume that we are all talking about Derren Brown here. [Edit: yes, just re-read your posts and can clearly see that we are ]

He is a very naughty boy and likes to tease magicians with little hints that are complete red herrings. For example, he did an effect with an athlete and said that she likes to stay "one ahead", and exclaimed that his dead and alive photo trick was "out of this world". These are not real hints but are designed to wind up magicians who try to work out his techniques after watching the telly.

Plus, DB is on record as being skeptical of NLP.

Given a choice between 'cheating' and using NLP/hypno any magician/mentalist worth their salt will use tawdry techniques including IMPs, PW/NWers, CC etc. And then lie and say that they are using NLP/hypno.

oops - double post.

Yeah, he's a wind up artist!

I don't understand how you can fake a rapid induction in front of a live audience.

Well, how do you know they were actually hypnotised? I've not seen the show in question so he may be doing just that, but I've seen previous shows where he puts people in a 'trance' that's about as trance like as Goa, bearing in mind I'm not a hypnotist.

If your main background is in clinical hypnosis then I suggest responding to individual posts as and when they arise. I think the review of R.I.P. gets quite a few posts on carrying out inductions and that's so popular it's almost a sticky!

Gary Dickson wrote:Well, how do you know they were actually hypnotised? I've not seen the show in question so he may be doing just that, but I've seen previous shows where he puts people in a 'trance' that's about as trance like as Goa, bearing in mind I'm not a hypnotist.

All I can say to that is: I'm as sure as I can be, having used hypnosis for a few years. Without discussing it with him, I can't stake my life on it, obviously.

How do you know he wasn't using hypnosis in other shows? I know he uses misdirection, but unless he's uses a stooge, what looks like trance, probably is.

Gary Dickson wrote:If your main background is in clinical hypnosis then I suggest responding to individual posts as and when they arise. I think the review of R.I.P. gets quite a few posts on carrying out inductions and that's so popular it's almost a sticky!

I'm not with you. It's a review thread. Why would I want to discuss inductions there if they aren't related to RIP or the review?

This simple thread seems to have come up against some quite strong opposition. I can't quite work out why it's such a problem for people if someone asks for a new section! It was only a question or have I missed the point again?